Probably for the first since he joined the club in 2016 Brendan Rodgers is disappointed in the people above him at Celtic.
The McGinn saga proves that timing is everything.
I would wager that if Celtic had offered the same deal three or four weeks ago then the combative midfielder might have been training with his new teammates at Lennoxtown today instead of Birmingham.
Yesterday I was in receipt of conflicting narratives from Easter Road and Parkhead about how the move for McGinn to Celtic had broken down.
Brendan wanted the midfielder as part of a long-term strategy.
A term that the Irishman often uses is “succession planning” and McGinn was identified as an important part of that process.
I am aware of a player that Rodgers identified in the summer.
He is a left-sided centre-back who had played in the world cup.
Let’s just say the deal concluding side of the operation dallied and Celtic lost the player who could have been signed for £3m.
It is safe to say that Rodgers’ frustrations with those above him at Celtic do not start and end with the McGinn shambles.
The Brendan’s mood would not have been lifted by the result last night.
It is now very much advantage AEK.
The second leg in the oppressive heat of Athens will be especially difficult for Rodgers’ men.
Moreover, the Irishman will be fully aware that the vital away goal was a product of some work experience defending.
Beware of Greeks accepting gifts…
Now there is the real likelihood that Celtic will be playing in the Europa League this season.
If that happens then tough choices will have to be made.
The financial structure of Celtic is no secret and it is based on a binary choice:
- Access Champions League revenue.
- Sell a major asset (e.g. Van Dijk, Wanyama).
There is no realistic third choice.
With either (1) or (2) in play then Celtic can sustain a football budget that is beyond the reach of any other club in Scotland.
The question this morning is this:
Is there anything that could that could have been done earlier to shore up Celtic’s backline?
If John McGinn was a Celtic player he would not have been in the team last night.
However, failure to sign him does point to the possibility that there is a deficiency in the recruitment process.
The Irishman took the job in 2016 on the basis that if he wanted a player and it was within budget then others would get the deal over the line.
Yesterday, the McGinn saga reminded me of the Steven Fletcher affair of January 2009.
Of course, there is a common denominator in both of those recruitment failures.
For the avoidance of doubt, Brendan Rodgers is not that nice Ronny Deila chap.
The Irishman can drive a hard bargain and he expects others to keep to their side of one.
Some folk at Celtic might be about to find that out.
From a friendly Leither perspective, and as someone who enjoys catching your blog regularly, it’s looked to me like:
Celtic asked Hibs for a price for John McGinn.
Neil Lennon [hardly a hostile face for Celtic] provided the asking price, repeatedly.
Peter Lawwell decided to offer around half the price [three times].
This came across as a cheap move, and (Lawwell’s eventual undoing) it hardly made the player feel wanted in Glasgow.
Villa came in and offered the price.
Villa made a fuss of the player and made him feel wanted, valued, important, special.
Hibs still went back to Celtic in good faith [Lennon factor etc] and didn’t ask for more money, just if Celtic wished to match Villa’s bid, which was, after all, at the asking price that Peter Lawwell had known all along.
Celtic matched the price but the player, feeling more wanted and valued in Birmingham, chose to sign for Steve Bruce.
Lawwell could have had this tied up in June.
That he did not is not Neil Lennon’s fault, or John McGinn’s, or Brendan Rodgers’, or anyone at Hibs.
Everyone acted in good faith, but Peter Lawwell has to look in the mirror over this one.
Er, AV offered £23K a week as wages and Peter Lawwell said no way as this would cause ructions with the senior players. I’ve heard from a good source that Rod Petrie opened the bidding at £4M plus Scott Allan, plus Mikey Johnston on loan and naturally PL said no way. Celtic also offered £100K more than AV’s final sale offer but wouldn’t budge on the wages, so McGinn went for the wages on offer and Birmingham. In the end you got your share of £2.7M and so did St Mirren and Celtic didn’t get ripped off.
Lennon stated before the Molde game that Hibs got their “Three to Four Million”.
Somebody is telling porkies it would seem and seeing as we offered them half what they initially wanted I’m guessing it’s someone at Celtic?
Well put Mr Phil…but as you mentioned the ‘ If word I reckon that if we moved at the beginning of the transfer window instead of trying to upstage Mr Petrie and play the he.s a tim card ? He would not have been euro cup tied..?
There’s a major disconnect with “fans” and the realities of “succession planning”. Celtic does not have the financial resource to maintain the current level of wages without “additional” income, whether it be CL cash or selling players.
The whole “aye but we sold so and so” so that money is there to be spent is the equivalent of the hun’s accountancy, tax skills, and long term planning,
1. Celtic need a cash reserve to avoid massive changes to the squad should we fail to get to the CL group stages.
2. Spending “transfer fees” brought in means we will be unable to offer large enough wages to attract the quality we need.
3. The lights, pitch and other “unnecessary” spend on building maintenance is needed, believe it or not.
4. The all the new improved extended deals for the likes of Brown, Rogic, Tierney etc plus the wages for Ntcham, Eddy, Demble, Griffiths etc … are not a one off cost. They have to be borne season after season and planned for accordingly. Then there’s the cost of the failures such as Compper, etc .. they eat away at the overall playing budget as well”
It’s not as simple as aye … we sold so and so and we made the CL cash so it should be there to spend. That’s a simplistic and totally wrong viewpoint.
B2B trebles and an Invincible season and some of our fans are acting like spoilt weans in a sweetie shop. If you lived through the dark years supporting Celtic and are one of them, then shame on you.
The treble treble is most likely a formality and all we’re worrying about is how we do in Europe … what a terrible season to look forward to.
First of all…
To state that the Treble Treble is most likely a formality…is a nonsense…and shame on you for saying so.
A combination of our team at best standing still,coupled with teams no longer fearing us the way they used to…will make this season’s Treble…extremely difficult…and not a formality.
Get real.
Going back to your lecture on the finances however…
You have conveniently missed out on a significant source of income…i.e…
Season Tickets.
I would hazard an intelligent guess that this would bring in something like £35 million…??….and that would cover a lot of your problems I trust.
Finally….If your idea of a well run Celtic consists of two young inexperienced CB’s playing in a vital CL match…followed by Izzy returning to us for a year on a free…and our Manager being publicly damaged by the Board…
then I am happy to be classed as a spoiled wean in a sweetie shop.
Go get them Brendan.
Phil I don’t like I told you so’s but I said pretty much the things u and others are saying on one of your reports around 4 weeks ago , I felt that our transfer business should have been done as early as possible this summer with a little left over to take advantage of the epl window closing early – I also pointed out the futility of a defence that would contain Hendry and Ajer at the heart of it , unfortunately those things have come to pass – I also said that it might mean us losing BR , I now think that if the likes of silva at Everton start badly and face the sack then we could easily see BR leave before SG across the city , the signs were there but u dusmissed my comments with arrogance. I will also state that no matter how well we are doing financially and how well our club is run I think it is in spite of Peter lawell not because of him. He never learned from the fletcher situation which directly contributed to strachan resigning it may be a case of history repeating with Brendan but let’s hope not – at the very least I hope mr Desmond hauls him over the coals for it by not paying his significant bonus this year
Scott Brown is carrying a knock and had McGinn been in place early in the window then would probably have started last night or at least played the Livingston game resting Brown.
That is the main reason Rodgers wanted him so he could rotate with Brown and take the pressure off our aging Captain.
Those who think McGinn was coming to make up the numbers obviously haven’t been listening to what Rodgers,Lennon and Brown have been saying about McGinn?
There is not a single player in our squad who can replace Brown if he gets injured that’s a fact none of them would have the same impact he does on a game.
McGinn would and has for other sides.
Not surprised Rodgers is pissed off with Lawwell because our approach for McGinn has been highly hypocritical given how we stand our ground on our own player evaluations?(and rightly so)
Armstrong for £7m?
Knocking back £8m for Boyata?
No wonder Petrie told him to ram it.
Come on Maribor
I feel for Brendan Rodgers but for Celtic Directors to think they could obtain the services of John McGinn for under £2m was either naïve or utterly delusional.
Either way, it was totally disrespectful to a fellow SPFL member club and it is not unreasonable of people to have expected better of Scotland’s richest football club.
Many respected commentators saw McGinn as the natural successor to captain Scott Brown so the fact that Celtic were dealing with the same club from which they purchased Scott Brown for £4.4m back in 2007 makes the actions of the Scottish Champions all the more peculiar.
Some will argue that McGinn is not quite the same class as Brown circa 2007, but if he was, then surely the offer from Celtic should have been closer to £10m, allowing for inflation and the insanity of the football transfer market?
Somewhere between £4m – £5m was not an unreasonable demand for a player of 23 who has won both domestic cup competitions, has 9 international caps and over 200 professional games under their belt.
Scott Brown was 22 when he signed for Celtic. He had won one domestic cup competition, had 3 international caps and 135 games under his belt.
Celtic’s initial offer is believed to be somewhere around the £1.25m mark. When one considers that Celtic purchased John Collins from Hibs almost 30 years ago for around £1m it once again brings the absurdity of their initial offer into a greater light.
Make no mistake that when Hibs sold Collins it was very much a book balancing exercise for the capital club.
The sale of Brown was similar as Hibs were trading their way out of mammoth debt and trying to complete the refurbishment of Easter Road and purchase training facilities.
This time around there are no such pressures. The stadium is first-class and the training facilities would not look out of place in any top league in Europe. There is no external debt and attendances are at their highest in almost 50 years.
Respectable Celtic blogs went into nonsensical overdrive with statements such as ‘Hibs are moving the goalposts’. They did no such thing. They simply stated their price and rejected all offers that failed to meet it.
Another claim was that Hibs were cutting their nose to spite their face because Celtic would simply sign McGinn on a pre-contract arrangement in January and Hibs would get nothing. That clearly is not going to happen.
Somehow Hibs would lose out by not caving in to Celtic because it will prevent any players making their way to Easter Road on loan. Surely with the right money for a player, Hibs can afford to purchase players of a calibre that are too good to simply warm the Celtic bench?
Even if McGinn had signed after Celtic matched Villa’s terms, the £28k weekly pay packet is far in excess of what would have been on the table initially, and a player mutiny would have followed because even the club captain doesn’t earn that amount.
So, whether they landed or lost McGinn, Celtic were always destined to lose because they disrespected – to the point of practically insulting – a fellow SPFL member club by trying to purchase a player on the cheap and it backfired.
It backfired because for the first time in a long time, Hibernian Football Club is in a strong and stable financial position, underpinned with a robust infrastructure.
Scottish football needs a number of strong clubs who can compete regularly for honours. That we appear to have two strong teams in the capital and a resurgent Aberdeen can only be good for the long-term prospects of our game.
The idea that a challenge to Celtic from Ibrox will bring about the restoration of the old order and will somehow fix the Scottish game is as naïve or utterly delusional as Celtic’s offers for John McGinn.
For my money, McGinn wasn’t even the best midfielder at Hibs last season.
If – as seems to be the case – Celtic were just blindsided by the sheer haste with which he scuttled off down to the midlands to sign for a 2nd-tier English side, rather than hold out for a potential Champions League club, then perhaps he’s simply self-selected and found his own level.
Good luck to him.
As for Hibs, their very promising-looking midfield of McGeouch, McGinn and Allan has now vanished into thin air.
Much as I’d like to see them challenging for another European place, the mid-table mire awaits.
I personally don’t think McGinn, cup tied or otherwise, would have brought anything to the team last night. It was all Celtic 11 v 11 with a blunder in defence for parity.
11 v 10 is a different game, look at our team when we go a man down for prime examples.
Lots of chatter about us in SM regarding AeK but it’s only half time. Brendan knows this.
As for the signing we need, look no further than a good solid CH, a leader, not Denayer as he was woeful without VVD beside him.
Have faith lads, 11 bhoys with the Green and White across their chests, a four leafed clover on their breast, are such a joy for us to see.
Hail hail
Hi Bandito…
My take on it is…
It disnae matter whether it was McGinn or Maginty’s goat…… From what we now know…BR wanted McGinn…and somebody said naw.
There lies the issue.
As far as I’m concerned…BR has done enough to earn trust from the Board…but its not happening…and that’s shameful.
When will we ever learn…?
Hail hail…
PS: I hope we put Levein oot tae grass tomorrow.
We are giving the Scottish media an opportunity that they will take gleefully to put the boot into Celtic.
McGinn would have brough something extra to the squad, alas it’s not happened.
As for last night I thought we played well, especially in the first half and were well worth a second goal before they took the only chance they had in the whole game.
Given the Greeks counter attack and cautious approach tactics we may well see a lot of the ball next week as they may look to hold on to the advantage the away goal has given them.
That could be in our favour though with our previous away performances it will be a nervy night.
Another goal for them doesn’t change the situation much, Celtic still need at least one to stay in the competition.
All hope is not lost.
Totally agree that McGinn would not have affected the game last night, a centre half bought last month or January or last year may have; how long do we have to stare at a problem position before someone solves it?
Also if we didn’t train Moussa to the point his body breaks down continually maybe he could have affected the game.
Phil; you hit the nail on the head with what most people are scratching their head over…
“Is there anything that could have been done earlier to shore up Celtic’s backline”
We all have known that for the past few years that defence was an area of concern and needed to be addressed. It was also known that there was a World Cup coming and that a couple of players would not be available. Then add in the fact that the changes to the CL format meant more games to qualify and probably tougher competition.
Knowing all that, the people in charge of identifying and getting in players allowed the January window to pass without doing anything and then they have also dithered in the current window. From my vantage point, it appears that some people are either fat and happy or have been asleep at the wheel and negligent. This inaction was criminal and may have cost the team CL qualification this year and about 30M quid.
Given the money that the club is currently sitting on, why has this been allowed to happen? I think that we need some serious questions asked of Lawwell as to what is going on here because this simply isn’t good enough. Please dig into this for us because we need answers.
Rodgers didn’t ask for nor target CB’s as he “was happy” in that department. The lack of “succession planning” in the defence is down to him.
Rubbish! Dhenbhoy. And I’ll make my points why for you and the rest who are missing the obvious.
1) The succession planning is already there with the CB position (Ajer and Hendry), what we need and were looking for, and if the rumours are to be believed almost had at the start of this transfer window was an experienced quality center half ( but slow reaction of the board again put paid to that)to help develop these 2 to get them to the level they most definitely can be. 2) Simunovic who don’t forget has just turned 24 and been with us for 3 seasons, also without the presence of an experienced CH to learn from and whom in my opinion is the best footballing CH we have at the club and with a bit more coaching and an older head to talk him through games will become a well polished diamond if we can keep him for long enough. And finally.
3) We already have that experienced CH at the club right under our noses in Mikael Lustig so panic over. His days as an right back are gone unfortunately but I have seen real glimpses of leadership and composure from the big swede in the previous times he has made appearances for us at CH so get him in the middle of the back 3 and let the other youngster’s learn from him. Bredan just has to have the balls to do it. Points made. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5c7e378fe95f96a3828c33d653a21be8b709132e2dc2aebd3aff1645df598e74.jpg
It’s very frustrating, which is nothing new, but they might be concentrating on the development outside the stadium, if they are, then as fans and shareholders we will be pissed off. HI
Don’t think the shareholders will be pissed off – they will benefit from it financially. But you are right about the fans not caring about all the off the filed stuff.
The experienced Lustig was more culpable for the AEK goal. If he had chased down their player to the goal line then the cross would never have come over taking Ajer completely by surprise. Worst case scenario would have been a corner kick.
We need a right back and a central defender. Lustig is making too many mistakes and is beginning to slow.
The defence has been a problem for years and Rodgers seems more interested in buying more midfielders and attackers while continuing to play the embarrassingly bad Sinclair at every opportunity.
Maybe it’s time for a new defensive coach since, on paper – with 3 world cup defenders (and Tierney) – the defence is pretty good.
Ronny Deila had VvD and Denayer which wasn’t long ago and was one of the strongest pairings Celtic have had for years.. both were 12+ goals a season men as well.
The realistic 3rd choice is live within your means. Other Spfl clubs do it and that is why they can no longer be low-balled by Celtic. If you start the McGinn bids at 1.2 million then you can expect rejection of that bid. It is simply not worth it as a financial incentive. However with 2.75 million both Lennon and Stubbs can meaningfully consolidate and strengthen their squad. Whilst this is to a lesser degree than selling a VVD, it allows progression beyond some of their less well run rivals.
Lawell has to appreciate that times have moved on and the days of acquiring players for buttons aided by so called sports press journalists are over when dealing with the likes of Hibs
Here’s the reality with McGinn:
Hibs had a valuation of the player, and it was made both publicly and privately known so that Celtic understood explicitly where they needed to work. People on the inside at Hibs also made it clear, long before Celtic’s first insulting bid, what that valuation was.
Irrespective of what else you may or may not hear, that valuation was always £3,000,000.
The rationale for this was simple.
Firstly, Celtic purchased Scott Brown for £4,400,000 and recently sold Stuart Armstrong for £7,000,000. At the point in their careers prior to joining Celtic, and thus of similar ages and performance totals, McGinn has achieved more major honours (2), competitive European performances (5) and international caps (9) than both of those COMBINED.
Secondly, there is a development payment that St Mirren are entitled to; this means that Hibs wouldn’t get all of the transfer fee.
Thirdly, McGinn is an extraordinary performer well beyond the financial reach of Hibs. Not only could they not get a player of that quality at the wages he was on, he was guaranteed to increase their income via improved cup runs, improved league position, and improved gates.
The goalposts were never changed, and Celtic know what they would have needed to pay in order to secure McGinn’s services. The fact that the opening bid from Parkhead was LESS than what Celtic paid for Armstrong, was a farcical insult to both the club, and the player. Hibs immediately realised that it was an attempt to bully them into selling their prize asset for a biscuit-tin offer, while McGinn himself ultimately realised that his pursuers couldn’t have valued him all that much.
As for the ‘common denominator’ between McGinn and Steven Fletcher that you allude to, Leeann Dempster is now in charge of the transfer business at Easter Road in her role as CEO. If your inference is that this is somehow down to Rod Petrie, then you’re misinformed and showing a short memory with regard to the number of players he’s happily sold to Celtic over the years.
Whether Celtic fans think McGinn is worth £3,000,000 or not, or even whether or not they contest that Brown and Armstrong (haha) are more accomplished players, is of no consequence.
McGinn has achieved more at this point in his career, you knew the price, and you didn’t want to pay it.
Another club did meet Hibs’ valuation, and treated the player as a valuable addition to their dressing room.
Perhaps in future, Celtic will treat their Scottish footballing colleagues with a little more respect.
I think Phil means the common denominator is Lawwell ie penny pinching, but not arguing with much else you said.
Fair enough, bud.
I’ve just seen a lot of commentary, particularly on the Twittersphere, where Celtic supporters are trying to blame Petrie; as Phil has suggested in one of his recent blogs.
It’s an indictment that doesn’t mesh terribly well with reality.
Celtic knew the price, didn’t want to pay it, so missed out.
They have exclusively themselves to blame.
I think you have got it spot on Chris, Celtic knew all along how much it would take to praise SJM away from Hibs but no, the way in which Celtic went about their business is an affront to anybody who has a player that would like to join them. It’s old news that SJM is a Celtic fan and would crawl along the M8 to play for them, but for me it was all about the way Celtic went about it. The price for SJM was known to all and sundry so to offer what they did was to me a joke. After the 3rd offer was made and turned down by Hibs Celtic then said that their offer was withdrawn, ok, thats celtics prerogative, then when it is known on monday that SJM was in Birmingham being shown around the ground and training ground, dinner with the gaffer etc thats how celtic should have done it, instead SJM is an Aston Villa player now, i also think John wanted the best deal both for Hibs and St Mirren to prosper from the deal. GGTTH.
100 PER cent on the money Chris! Pardon the pun!! HH
The Celtic business model ( euro income and/or player asset sale) is more than acceptable and understood by the majority of sensible Celtic supporters. A necessary strategy in the financially skewed football climate of the 21st century….
However… it seems to be fuelled by potential future income rather than wealth generated over the previous couple of seasons.
Brendan Rodgers and supporters have every right to feel very,very shortchanged..
….the wealth generated since summer 2016 through player transfers, CL qualification and increased Season Ticket sales are greater than ever ( I won’t attempt to put a figure on it) and the vast bulk of this increase is directly attributable to the ‘Brendan Effect’.
Celtic don’t have to gamble on possible ‘futures’like another club we all know! The money is there to spend and invest NOW …
… so why behave like the club is having to watch the pennies?
I agree about McGinn.. he would be ineligible for Europe and might have just languished as a quality squad player ‘a la Armstrong’….
… but the mechanics of the saga, and the outcome are worrying and shows Celtic up as dithering and penny pinching at best – incompetent at worst.
Let’s hope that there’s more solid investment this summer than just the purchase of a very large biscuit tin.
The backbone of our success recently is having the best Scottish players at our disposal. We lost Armstrong, a brilliant modern European style footballer. Mcginn could have replaced some of those components, eg box to box aggression. We lack legs in midfield.There is a simple solution to winning ten in a row. Get the best Scottish talent,and keep them. Short term foreign signings put the icing on the cake, however just because you come on loan from a big club doesn’t guarantee you are better than what we have.Let Sevco continue to make that mistake. We have head start with Scottish talent, and this must continue. Mcginn has a Celtic background, so therefore the concern has to be why we didn’t get him.?
Is it in the DNA of Celtic Boards to shoot themselves in the foot ?
Our handling of recruiting players is abysmal…and has been for a long time.
Its all very well basking in the glory of transfers like VVD…Wanyama…et al…but when it comes to spending money…The Board is still penny pinching.
Oh and before I’m reminded that Big Eddie was a Club record buy….well he wasn’t.
He might be one day…but not today…and that’s a fact.
Remember also that in the last two months alone, we got £7 million for Armstrong and a possible further £7 million plus for Virgil’s sell on clause.
Bear also in mind the money that we’ve banked from CL qualification…and all of a sudden…we’ve got loadsa money…which we’re not to prepared to invest in new players.
But that’s only part of the problem…The main problem is…BR is not being given the backing he deserves…and that is totally unacceptable.
When will this nonsense end?
Yer damn tootin there’s a problem with recruitment. Especially in central defence.
Also, if Celtic sell a major player after taking 7 million quid in for Stuart Armstrong they totally lack ambition and it’ll be a long autumn.
The strangest sound inside Paradise is the Europa League theme music. At least where I sit, everyone just looks at each other during it wondering what to do.
I wouldn’t blame Brendan Rodgers if he has now become disillusioned but he must also shoulder blame for the lack of quality in central defence. Kristoffer Ajer is a converted midfielder. Marvin Compper reminds of a great Tommy Docherty line about Bryan Robson “He’d get a head injury thinking too hard on A Question of Sport”. Jack Hendry hasn’t looked every inch a Dundee player. Dedryck Boyata is a good, solid player on his day and is also a threat at set-pieces but is prone to moments of concentration frailty. Jozo Simunovic’s best form seemed to be beside the now departed Erik Sviatchenko.
Fans aren’t comforted by hotels, museums, ticket offices, shining lights or tannoys. Fans want their investments in the club, both monetary and emotional, to = a better team every year.
Ok Celtic you have 3 weeks. Please don’t waste a moment.
As well as the £7m for Armstrong we also got a similar amount for VVD2 plus other sales eg Erik, so we’ve probably pulled in the guts of £15m this summer.
On top of the tens of millions already swilling the coffers I just do not see the need to sell a major asset.
Doing that won’t ensure we don’t qualify for the Champions League but it makes it more likely and becoming serial failures will see us circling the drain of selling players to compensate, making qualification harder…and repeat.